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Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 02:34AM
It is lame that talented videographer such as hate5six wasn't allowed to film at all (particularly as you mentioned the opening bands that many missed), but i can really understand the sentiment of wanting to control something like this. it's obviously important to the band (as i understand that pat flynn was also asking people with cameras not to film), and by extension bridge nine. i think it can seem contradictory but i can't fault the band or the label for making sure everything is done as they want it done.

i was disappointed initially to see there was no video online, but when i leared there was a dvd coming, i was fine with it. they obviously want the best product they can provide, and i am fine with paying for that.

none of this is meant as disrespect for hate5six. i have spent much time watching your videos online and i have a tremendous amount of respect for what you do.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 02:36AM
hate5six Wrote:
> I wasn't allowed to film the show because my
> videos are "too good" and they said they were
> afraid I would "hurt their DVD sales."
> How often do you hear someone tell an amateur
> photographer, "you can't take pictures at this
> show because you post your pictures online and
> that will hurt our poster sales"? People will
> still buy a tangible, high quality poster just as
> people will buy a tangible, professionally
> produced DVD--regardless if an amateur films it as
> well.
> Bridge Nine told me it's the same reason they
> don't film bands recording their new albums. They
> don't want any audio to leak because if people
> see/hear a short clip of the album, they won't go
> out and buy it when it officially comes out. The
> simile that filming a band's live show (a public
> event) is akin to filming them recording an album
> (privately/for the purpose of releasing an album)
> is interesting, but a tenuous one at best
> (example: that teaser clip of Converge in the
> studio only made me more stoked on the final
> product, to be honest.)
> Imposing limitations on a scene founded upon a DIY
> ethic (in particular, denying someone because they
> are "too good"winking smiley is depressing and it spits in the
> face of progress.
> What irks me is that they allowed a myriad of
> photographers to shoot the show: some who use
> their pictures commercially and some who share
> their stuff for free. Online video documentation
> of hardcore is still in its infancy, but their
> reasoning for denying me--which is a seldom
> occurrence--sets a terrible precedent. I have no
> qualms with them wanting to release a DVD for the
> band. But the fact of the matter is that they are
> taking something public (in this case, a showcase
> of bands) and are artificially creating hype by
> hording the footage until the pressure cooker says
> it's time to release it.
> I spend way too much of my time thinking about the
> future of online video and all of this has raised
> some questions for me. Who has the authority to
> determine what footage can be seen and what can't
> be seen? I share all of my videos in their
> entirety because a song or band that means little
> to me may mean something to someone else. Who am
> I to say certain footage can't be seen?
> There was poor mismanagement at Edge Day and
> several hundred people, all of whom had preordered
> tickets, were stuck in line and missed 5-6 of the
> 9 bands. Why should they have to wait 4 months
> and pay for a DVD that will undoubtedly have
> little footage of the bands they missed?
> Obviously cuts must be made if a tangible DVD is
> being produced; but this is exactly why online
> video is viable and should be embraced and not
> seen as some sort of threat to sales. Video
> should be made available in its entirety but hey,
> that's just my personal opinion.
> Support DIY....Unless it threatens your sales.
> -- Two of my several hundred cents worth of
> thoughts on this issue.
> PS: Deathwish > Bridge Nine

The videos will still be on YouTube just like the Champion DVD and Ten Yard Fight VHS B9 put out.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 05:40AM
if anything, seeing a video of it shot from one camera perspective is going to do nothing but get people more hyped to see the final multicamera/pro audio copy of the show.
the b9 version will be all over youtube and blogspots immediately when it comes out. i dont understand bridge 9's logic on this one.

- alex
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 10:02AM
Gotta make that cheddar.

Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 10:08AM
> if anything, seeing a video of it shot from one
> camera perspective is going to do nothing but get
> people more hyped to see the final multicamera/pro
> audio copy of the show.
> the b9 version will be all over youtube and
> blogspots immediately when it comes out. i dont
> understand bridge 9's logic on this one.

It makes intuitive sense that having footage "leak" would hurt sales, but I think--and argued to no avail-- that that is not the case. I don't have raw data indicating how my videos have directly helped the release of a DVD (none of the shows I've filmed to date were released to DVD by someone else), and I think it's safe to say labels (specifically Bridge Nine) don't have any data indicating the converse (that leaked footage actually hurts DVD sales).

If we take away the element of money, the sole factor we're left with is time. A simple fact about time is that interest wanes with it. More people are likely to view a video of a show that has occurred within the last week or two than they are if the video is released months later. I do have the statistics for this and this is exactly why I try to put all my footage out within the first week of a show. A sizable number of people will still buy the Have Heart DVD when it comes out, but a large number of people who proclaim interest now will be less likely to buy it (and less likely to actually watch it thoroughly) in a few months.

Couple that with the fact that I'm always flooded with requests for DVDs of my shows, I'm confident that I pose no threat to anyone's profit margins. It all boils down to one thing: people will want a fully produced DVD complete with multiple angles, soundboard audio, interviews, etc, that they can watch on their TV. These are elements I don't have the resources/interest in incorporating with my work.

threexs -- no worries, I didn't take your post the wrong way. I've been trying to get into discussions about this with people because I think it's a pretty important question, so I appreciate you sharing your opinion. All of this has raised questions regarding "media control" (for the severe lack of a better phrase) in hardcore. Amateur photographers generally have little problem when trying to shoot a show, but the same is absolutely not the case for videographers in hardcore. Video documentation is getting easier to do and is therefore only going to progress and become more common. I think it's something that needs to be encouraged and not barred--especially in the hardcore scene.

Like I said, I'm interested in hearing people's opinion on all of this (media control, ownership of footage, the current role/perception of DIY in hardcore, etc). I can be reached via e-mail: hate5sixproductions at gmail dot com, and I'm always happy to discuss this in person if you see me at a show I'm filming.

Thanks for your time.

Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 02:59PM
Sunny, I told you that I'd be stoked to have you film any of our bands at almost any show, just not the ONE show that we already had a film crew at to use for a new release. I saw the footage from the PBC/Strike Anywhere show, prior to you contacting me about HH, and I was stoked on it and appreciate the kind of opportunity that you provide for people who can't be at these shows.

I didn't want to make this into a money issue, but the fact is, B9 put a lot more $ into the final show recording than was suggested, and I wanted to make sure it's awesome. I'm not concerned about trying to squeeze money out of kids, or control how they can see it. When the DVD comes out, kids will either support the release and buy it, or watch it on their laptops, whatever. The reality is that Have Heart was a special band on B9's roster, and the fact that there was more people at their final show than I've EVER seen at a hardcore show (fests not included), means that they were a special band to a lot of people. That said, I wanted to make sure we could document it in a way that was better than the average video of a show. I'm not worried about kids watching it for free. The reality is that a percentage of kids will support the release and pay for it, which is how we continue to release records. If you don't buy records, at some point we (and all labels) will not be able to afford to keep making them. When I emailed you, I did explain, very respectfully, that I wanted to keep it under wraps until it could be released officially. When we did the TYF video ten years ago, we had a similar no video policy, and it made kids stoked to finally see it. That's not rocket science, when a CD comes out 3 months after it "leaks", less people care. We wanted kids to care. It's not the immediate gratification that you might be used to. I thought I was pretty straight forward and respectful in my email, but then you turned around and cried on twitter, multiple messageboards (including B9, which you use to hype your site pretty well on), and now Deathwish, and made this into a big bad B9 against the little guy kind of issue, which couldn't be further from the truth. You sound like the little kid who couldn't get his way and is going to bitch about it to no end.

Everything was done by hardcore kids and by my definition of DIY... Wrench organized the video, Jay Maas (Defeater) recorded the audio, and B9 will be releasing it, for likely $12 a pop. Pretty reasonable price to have a double disc CD & DVD at your finger tips. No corporate sponsors on this.

I get that you're into communism and not wanting to charge money or pay for stuff, that's your thing, that's cool. The problem though is that you get what you pay for. If kids want something for free, it's going to be just one camera angle, basic to no editing, and poor quality sound. For most shows posted online, that's all you need. But for a bands final show, like Have Heart, I wanted to make sure it was adequately documented. By taking a risk and putting a lot of money up, I am trying to make something that is of a very high quality, and at a more than reasonable price. We actually did this exact same thing only two years ago for Champion, and to zero complaints, in fact people were stoked that there was such a good documentation of what was another important band (and show) for a lot of people.

Your talk of "media control". I get what you're trying to imply, but keep in mind this was specifically related to one show. I do encourage people to film bands and post them online, I think it's a great resource. The more documentation, the better. You're barking up the wrong tree with that one. Since this was being filmed for a release, we didn't want you to post it the next day, in the same fashion that we wouldn't let you film our bands in the studio. I don't think it was that crazy of a request, or one worthy of your campaign against us.

The only thing that I would have changed, perhaps, would have been to let you film the opening bands. Hindsight is 20/20 on that one. Forgive me, it was a crazy, crazy day with more details than time.

In any event, B9 has been pretty straight forward about our intentions for a long, long time, and people either get it and support and appreciate our efforts, or they don't. I appreciate everyone who gets what we are about, and thank you for your support.

- Chris

I absolutely appreciate Sunny's efforts, I think people filming bands and posting them online is awesome, just not the ONE time that we were paying a lot to make it into a legit live release. HH played A LOT of non-final shows this year and you would have been more than welcome to document each and every one of those.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 05:28PM
this has sparked some lenghty replies, however I never made this thread for people to bitch about a hard-working staple hardcore label.

i'll be buying the dvd.

- phoenix.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 05:53PM
Phoenix, you said the word "staple" again. Watch out!


thank you

- Chris
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 06:30PM
This has turned into quite a debate. Even from early on when I was defending the label not really making anything off this dvd to Sunny calling out B9 and Chris in return. For what it's worth I see both sides here. Mostly Chris' point about more than one team documenting the show. Why do you need that? Only common sense would tell you that any label or band wouldn't want a less quality video going out there the next day. This isn't about the money or "media control" which in itself is laughable. This is about savoring that moment when people get to see it for the first time. When all the hype was out there about Inglorious Bastards and the Hangover this summer, would you rather download some shitty version with peaking audio from the theatre and piss poor visuals or would you rather walk down to the cinema, pay 10 bucks and have the real thing? If I come off as a dick then apologies where they're due but really wake up pal. I think your artistic vision to bring 24p on your consumer cam (or whatever $3,000 camera and downloaded copy of FCP you use) to the masses is more equal to hearing the sound of your own horn really. and the only thing i can say on your behalf is that i agree with filming in the studio being a good thing. i've done it several times for labels out here in LA and it's very easy to show the band recording, explaining the process with interviews, and not showing more than a few seconds of actual audio so that the final product isn't spoiled. You can interview the engineer, document the studio itself, and have voiceovers during the musicians playing the new tracks. maybe throw in some solo vocal takes or just a guitarist shredding for a few seconds and that's all you need. the rest can be about the process itself. why they chose the studio, engineer, the band talking about inspiration or what directions going in. just a word of advice even though i know this will just fuel the fire.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 06:35PM by harkonnen.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 06:45PM
nice one, Chris.

thanks for putting out records, we owe you that much.

i liked the movie enallagy too, harkonnen.

- phoenix.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 28, 2009 06:52PM

Again, thanks for your input. Accusing me of acting like a child is uncalled for, though. I have done nothing but try to start conversation with people about a topic that is important to me. Where's the fault in that? Of course I'm going to voice my thoughts regarding an issue about hardcore on hardcore messageboards and Twitter because, well, that's where our demographic exists on the internet.

Sure, it might seem like I'm trying to pick a fight and that I'm only doing so because I "feel safe behind a keyboard". But that's not the case. Unlike those who get off on talking shit, I will stand by my comments and opinions in person (or in print or e-mail or whatever). If something bothers me I'm going to address it. As I've said before, I apologize if my sentiments are not being expressed as clearly, or respectfully, as I intend for them to be.

At the end of the day, I'm looking for discussion (which tends to be missing in hardcore)--not a fight. With that said, I'm not declaring any war against Bridge Nine and I'll continue to film Bridge Nine bands that come through my area. Hell, Defeater slept at my place the other night!

I think we can agree to disagree on the decision to restrict who was allowed to film the show and whether or not amateur videographers should be treated like amateur photographers. Fine. I understand that the guy from Face The Show was allowed to film the show (because his footage will be donated to the DVD project). That's fine, too. While this has not been confirmed, I'm also hearing that he'll be posting his footage online? I think (or hope, rather) you will see my frustration with this on the off chance the rumor is true.

Thanks again for sharing your side of the argument on this issue.


PS - For anyone keeping score, I don't fully subscribe to communism and the relation between hate5six.com's mission and that of the communist ideology is merely superficial.

EDIT: My comment "Deathwish>B9" was unnecessary, so I apologize for that.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 07:25PM by hate5six.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 29, 2009 03:26PM
C'mon, no hijacks...let's talk about how I've seen Have Heart three times and they were great. Nice guys too.

Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 29, 2009 03:55PM
shit escalated quickly
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 29, 2009 05:02PM
After reading this thread I've lost a tremendous amount of respect for hate5six...
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
October 29, 2009 05:04PM
hm, let's just leave it alone now and wait for the dvd smiling smiley

- phoenix.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
March 01, 2010 02:07PM
I am stoked for this personally, i think ill most likely just get the DVD but i was at the Tour when it stoped by, i was just wondering if anyone else who played Edge Day would have at least one song on there?? the only reason why im curious cause some Bane clips would be fantastic!
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
March 01, 2010 09:35PM
id love some step forward footage I missed them.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
March 01, 2010 09:41PM
ebullientsoul Wrote:
> After reading this thread I've lost a tremendous
> amount of respect for hate5six...
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
March 01, 2010 10:52PM
so whens this DVD coming, because honestly I forgot all about it and personally i love hate5six for giving me a chance to watch shows that go on in Baltimore and philly that i can't get to.
Re: Have Heart "Final Show" CD/LP/DVD
March 02, 2010 11:22AM
I don't really have anything to say about the situation, the show, or the bands. All I really have to say is LOL @ that hint of McCarthyism/cold war type vibe
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